Its been too long since I wrote something..and updated my blog.. but still am glad I've quite a few readers who peep in to have a look..sorry to keep the few readers in "anticipation mode"..Have been held up in the mundane jobs of a being a married woman.Been looking out for job..few issues to be sorted.. ok now getting to the blog-
-was just introspecting yesterday and remembered the STATEMENT made by my hubby during the tiffs we used to have.. Couple of times he made the statement and it was etched in my mind. So today planned on putting my tots on it in words-
My hubby- "valmiki,the great saint who composed the epic ramayana has told 'DHOL,( Drum) SHUDRA(Of or belonging to lower caste),PASHU(Animal),NARI(women species) are to be kept as dust below the feet' "
Many times I tried to explain it to him but to no avail. But I kept on thinking on it and what could the great sage have meant?At times I was also upset with the ways of the world and the way women are treated. The world has always had a slew of male chauvinistic pigs in the upper echelons of the societal and religious setup. I always told him saints had great reverence to females and am quite sure thats not what he meant.
Finally, today , I drew a conclusion and with a little research this is what I found out-
Its not sage Valmiki who said this but sant Tulsidas in his Ramcharitamanas and its a chaupai-
"Dhol, gawar, sudra, pashu, nari sakal tadan ke adhikari"
Literal meaning- drums, illiterate, of lower caste, animals, and female deserve a beating to straighten up and get the acts together.But what the saint truly meant was probably as below-
1* DHOL- The strings of the drum needs to be tightened to get beautiful music out of the instrument.He is referring to the HUMAN MIND which left lose can create havoc.Humans must control their mind.(irrelevant thoughts)
2* GAWAR- The human mind is ever in the process of learning and he refers to the thoughts of the human mind.We need to train and give food to the mind which are positive in nature.
3* PRANI- again its about the thoughts which can run as wild as an animal and needs to be trained in the right direction.It also implies You need to try and teach mind that has deep Tamasic attitude like animals.I also means that even these tamasic minded people also have the
strong rights under God to have proper guidance to get Moksha (Taran)
4* SHUDRA - He doesnt mean of/belonging to lower caste but keeping our thoughts clean clear and pure and not of shudra pravrutthi**(nature)
5.NAARI- last but not least he talks about the attributes which are considered to be that of a female- kama (sensual gratification), Krodha (anger), Moha(delusion), Lobha(greed), Matsara - envy, Mada(Pride/arrogance).A human needs to dissolve or burn away the six poisons for acquisition of true bliss-ANANDA
He meant taming the mind leads to serenity.
To support my understanding I found an article in Kalyan, the magazine published by Gita Press, Gorakhpur in the library. Somehow my attachments aren't showing up hence have deleted it..
any more inputs on this shall update again..
Thanks,
-was just introspecting yesterday and remembered the STATEMENT made by my hubby during the tiffs we used to have.. Couple of times he made the statement and it was etched in my mind. So today planned on putting my tots on it in words-
My hubby- "valmiki,the great saint who composed the epic ramayana has told 'DHOL,( Drum) SHUDRA(Of or belonging to lower caste),PASHU(Animal),NARI(women species) are to be kept as dust below the feet' "
Many times I tried to explain it to him but to no avail. But I kept on thinking on it and what could the great sage have meant?At times I was also upset with the ways of the world and the way women are treated. The world has always had a slew of male chauvinistic pigs in the upper echelons of the societal and religious setup. I always told him saints had great reverence to females and am quite sure thats not what he meant.
Finally, today , I drew a conclusion and with a little research this is what I found out-
Its not sage Valmiki who said this but sant Tulsidas in his Ramcharitamanas and its a chaupai-
"Dhol, gawar, sudra, pashu, nari sakal tadan ke adhikari"
Literal meaning- drums, illiterate, of lower caste, animals, and female deserve a beating to straighten up and get the acts together.But what the saint truly meant was probably as below-
1* DHOL- The strings of the drum needs to be tightened to get beautiful music out of the instrument.He is referring to the HUMAN MIND which left lose can create havoc.Humans must control their mind.(irrelevant thoughts)
2* GAWAR- The human mind is ever in the process of learning and he refers to the thoughts of the human mind.We need to train and give food to the mind which are positive in nature.
3* PRANI- again its about the thoughts which can run as wild as an animal and needs to be trained in the right direction.It also implies You need to try and teach mind that has deep Tamasic attitude like animals.I also means that even these tamasic minded people also have the
strong rights under God to have proper guidance to get Moksha (Taran)
4* SHUDRA - He doesnt mean of/belonging to lower caste but keeping our thoughts clean clear and pure and not of shudra pravrutthi**(nature)
5.NAARI- last but not least he talks about the attributes which are considered to be that of a female- kama (sensual gratification), Krodha (anger), Moha(delusion), Lobha(greed), Matsara - envy, Mada(Pride/arrogance).A human needs to dissolve or burn away the six poisons for acquisition of true bliss-ANANDA
He meant taming the mind leads to serenity.
To support my understanding I found an article in Kalyan, the magazine published by Gita Press, Gorakhpur in the library. Somehow my attachments aren't showing up hence have deleted it..
any more inputs on this shall update again..
Thanks,
With due respect to all Naaris,
ReplyDeleteThe literal meaning is true meaning. It is thousands years of experience that Females havesome attributes(you have also mentioned that in your post) which need to be controlled. I will give my own example: My wife is very much literate and earns equal to me. I was used to treat her very respectfully and my marriage life was like hell. Now I have become bully on her and my marriage life is like heaven. Bully doesn't mean that I am beating her. But in some cases I firmly disagree with her and forces her to do what I say. In most cases after sometime, she also agrees that my decision was right.
Sanjum,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your input. But, with no offence to you and nothing personal I do not want to debate over your personal matters. Going further from what you have stated purely shows the line of รงontrol :-) and your attitude and definition of a wife. She is entitled to have her own views and opinions and judgements and equations with people. You cannot be a ring master nor your wife any animal. I pity women who go through such dirty marriages and still continue. No I do not intend to get personal after all its her life entangled with yours so you guys are the best judges but, for a harmonious married life until unless there is a mutual agreement and sharing of views and thoughts it is never a happy one. The one who is suppressing would burst out one fine day. Just because a wife agrees with a decision doesnt mean you are holding the rope,she is just giving a lee way and trying to avoid conflicts to maintain peace. Anyway you are entitled to have your opinion and all the best with it. Have a good life ahead.
I would like to add the more you would respect your wife the more you would be respected in the society and your kids. Your post shows a clear attitude of male chauvinists and a man who is equally jealous.
ReplyDeleteHi Deeptii,
ReplyDeleteYou are accurate in your interpretation of the word 'taaran' which means salvation. However I differ from you in your interpretation of 'Nari'.
To explain my point, let me explain how moksha was thought to be attained. Men performed rigorous 'tapasya' or meditation to attain moksha. Because of biological reasons, it is not preferable to women to do 'tapasya' (Though history is full of accounts of women doing 'tapasya') Therefore it was interpreted that women can not attain moksha/salvation. But the chaupayee simply says that women also deserve salvation. Simple.
Thanks Nitesh, for having gone through the write up and sharing your point of view. Agreed women deserve salvation but what are the means according to you? If women aren't supposed to do 'tapasya' because of biological reasons how and why did women of history do it? any idea? :-) I would like to know your reasoning
ReplyDeleteHi Deepti,
ReplyDeleteIn my point of view, a woman achieves salvation the moment she becomes a mother because no one else can shower such kind of love and care selflessly, egolessly, anger lessly, greed lessly.
Saying so, its contrast to the views that a woman cannot achieve salvation by tapasya due to biological reasons.
Woman only are blessed by god to achieve salvation by doing nothing but bringing a new life and pouring every drop of love she ever had.
Man has to find a way to achieve salvation or being one with the supreme power.
Mothers on the other hand are living God on earth they dont need any stupid salvation to achieve something they already have.
Manish
Women doesn't get salvation just by being a mother unless she does impart good qualities in her dependents.
DeleteQualities that you are talking about is common to all ANIMALS...(that too for sometime in some cases) but Being A Great Human Mother It take a little Extra!!!
:-) where would you place your mother? no offence & sorry getting personal. Its not just the duty of a mom to impart good qualities, a father too can be influential. Yes, the mother is the first teacher and to a great extent influence the kid during the growing years. But her salvation isn't dependent on what qualities her kid develops. Also looks like you haven't read the whole write up.Kindly read it completely :-)Also could you please explain the second part that you have written with more clarity?
DeleteThanks for writing in,
Hi & oops..you misunderstood me...people generally do!! :-)
DeleteI DO respect womanhood, including, as a mother...BUT for "salvation" that's not enough...
You were right! I didn't read the post completely. My bad!! But the first para of Mr. manish's post prompted me to stop and reply.
Now, as you have asked, for me, Salvation is to break the cycle of birth and death! And for this, man has to do his duty, without getting attached with all the "Maya" around, and completely surrendering all his duties to God.(I heard these "loaded" words during an ISKCON Lecture)
Now what should a woman do, to get it!!? Can't she just pop out 3.5 kg child, bring him up under her "love and care that is selfless, ego less, anger less, greed less" and book her ticket for salvation!
If this is true then I think, the best candidate for such motherly love is SEA LOUSE as "...once the babies are ready to be born, they make their way into the world by eating her from the inside out."
ref: http://animal.discovery.com/tv/a-list/creature-countdowns/moms/moms-10.html
Now time to answer your first question. I would never place my mother against a Sea-Louse-as-a-mother's comparison... :-)
I agree with you on this: "her salvation isn't dependent on what qualities her kid develops", but it depends on what qualities, she tries in her child to develop!
"Mothers on the other hand are living God on earth" I agree...but she shouldn't be "selfishly" selfless JUST for her own child...as like ANIMALS mentioned in the website that I referenced...rather she should make her child strong enough (as she herself is) to follow the path of salvation... explanation of the second part of the reply!
This Long Reply is just to present my views in a good way in front of the only stranger whom I admire most...
Please forgive me if I sounded rude or inconsiderate in my shallow reasoning.
And Please keep writing...Women have always been a mystery to me...I hope that through your writings I would get to know the better part of manhood, in a better way.
Thanks!
Previously "Ramjaane" now A-Shadow-Towards-Light!
If your interpretation of Taaran means Salvation-Moksha for all 5 in question. It doesn't explain how even 'Dhol' comes into picture and attain Moksha. Dhol is not a living creature. Moreover for Dhol it suits the literal meaning of Taaran i.e. to hit. Because other meaning 'moksha' doesn't make sense for it. Dhol has to be hit, if that's true then Tulsidas's chaupai remains controversial, not wthstanding nice interpretation, you have given. - Sunil
ReplyDeleteThe meaning you have derived over is not right & U r not looking into the context where it was said.Here "Tadan" does not mean beating but it means that these should not be let loose & should be tightly tied so that it produces good music that would be the salvation for dhol for which it was created. It in short means disciplining.
ReplyDeleteInfact another great saint - nirgun sant kabeer says :
"Guru kumhaar Shish kumbh hai, .. Antar haath sahaar de, baahar maare chot.."
means "a Guru (master) is like a man who makes earthern pots (kumhaar) & Shishya (pupil/disciple) is like an earthen pot which needs to be beaten outside with a hand inside to support in order to make it beautiful and for the right shape".
All these dohas need to be interpreted and they have very deep meaning and at times its not easy to understand the great people who have said it..In kannada as they say veda sul aadaru gaade sullu aagadu""similarly these are the experiences put in form of words which is truly difficult for a common man to understand..Also my interpretation could be wrong. but I would like to give an example :
"Yojan Ek Moonch Rahi Thadi, Yojan Char asika Badi". The above chowpayee is referred to KumbhKaran in which it is stated that each moustache of Kumbhkaran was one Yojan long. (One Yojan = eight miles)which is not correct and again chowpayee states that the nose of Kumbhkaran was four Yojan long i.e., equal to twenty miles which is also not possible practically.
So all am trying to do is give a modern outlook and a deeper understanding with a logical reasoninng
reasoning*- typo!
ReplyDeleteMy husband also keeps saying this sentence now and then n believe me it irriates me to hell... at least i found there is also a different interpretation than the one usually taken for granted..
DeleteOur forefathers, and their forefathers, all of them from previous lineage always had a deep meaning to whatever they uttered..My grandmom used to tell me lots of stories when I was a kid..I used to question a lot probably am able to interpret and understand the deeper meaning because of that..Everything has a reason behind we just need to see what it is and where from it originated :-) Good luck and thanks for letting me know you found the answer !
ReplyDeleteOh Mam...you are a rational woman...A hope I would get a wife like u some day!!! You Husband is sure a lucky man!!!
DeleteOh yes Ramjaane !I shall take your reply positively and truly hope you find a wife who has similar thought process that of mine..My hubby truly is a lucky man :-)and I hope he doesn't run behind you for having said this ;-)hehe
Deletehaving said this, i'm still waiting for an explanation of the second part..
:-D haha
DeleteI have tried...hoping that my reply won't be taken negatively again...
having said this, i'm still waiting for its response ...
Interesting ... Essentially it has been and will continue to be a battle of hormones ... oxytocin in females and testosterone in males.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, each one of us gratifies ourselves thinking and believing that we have interpreted the meaning of something correctly - who does not want to have a self belief that I am unique and I have decoded something that none has done before.
Here is what is unfolding right now:
A couple who has been "love" married for 15 years (known for 17) 2 kids, both working. She has had 2 affairs or flings (in 4th & 14th yrs) and both caught by the husband. If there were other, he doesn't know. Yet she ends up screaming at him for snooping on her (there is solid proof in both cases) - squarely blames him & his side of family for not being "man" enough. Applies cruelty (as per IPC) to him and yet does not want to leave since it is a far comfortable and easy life - no interference of in-laws or other relatives, she is allowed to drink smoke to her liking, own car, can move around anytime anywhere - total freedom package, spends time in malls, servants and maids at home, no work pressure, etc ...
At this juncture, I stop and ask why is it that it is always the woman who gets the sympathy. The husband a top performer in an MNC is lagging far behind now due to these tensions. He travels a lot internationally, has never wandered, wavered, allows her complete freedom - no restrictions and this is how she treats him and then puts all the blame on him.
I see similar examples a lot near and around me. So many that it makes me wonder how and why is the male always the PIG and the culprit - how can anyone even write and think that - just because they are cultured to think like that.
Don't know what the exact literal and non-literal meaning is of this DOHA or whatever, but it does sound real.
//Don't know what the exact literal and non-literal meaning is of this DOHA or whatever, but it does sound real.//
DeleteI would like you to read this only if you have an unbiased mind and sensible thoughts.The very fact that you agree with the sounding of the doha proves a lot of things :-)
I can quote thousands and lakhs of cases that I hear see and experience in my day to day life.In all my growing up years all I could conclude was the thought pattern of the Indian society with regards to the fairer sex(gender)is biased.This very term'fairer sex'is probably an example to an extent-isn't it?
You have quoted the instance of a 'good'man. But somewhere I don't see the complete story.Her story and the third side to it the analysis. As the saying goes there are always 3 sides : your truth,their truth and the truth.
If he has a successful career he has miserably failed in his personal life don't you think? If at all as you claim they had a love marriage and something led to her occasional flings what could be the possible reason?Why was there a gap of 10yrs in between? A man no matter how many times he cheats on his better half, she is asked to carry on life and 'adjust' with him-why? Why isnt any man ever asked to 'adjust' with a female who cheats? In turn he is asked to desert her..
I have also been witness to an incident where the female for no fault of her's has been falsely accused and been deserted.
So who is the 'pig'here? Infact the lady had accepted several of his previous affairs and not voiced it even once.He would torture her to the core.
I believe no one should talk between a hubby and a wife. It serves no point. They must sort it out amongst themselves or just leave it.
"Educated" and "cultured" people would get to the crux of anything,Think Ponder and reason out logically and then arrive at conclusions. So if at all your perception says it sounds real then be it :-)
signing off
Deep
P.s: Hope you would not bring in her side of the story from YOUR mouth translated by YOUR brain and heard from YOUR ears
Ah and btw, would have truly appreciated you sharing your views if you had an existence on my blog :-)an identity is what it calls for- why hide?:)
DeleteHey...this article of yours, I think, tops all the other related links...cool! I remember, around two months back I also got trapped in your musing, here on this "web" page...and still struggling! :-)
ReplyDeleteYes, I suppose this is highly read write up!Thx for getting hooked up
DeleteA nice and Informative blog. What our sages have said in their writings have got a horrible transformation in meaning, over a long period of Time.
ReplyDeleteAgreed Kumar, we as humans have this amazing power of knowledge to actually interpret things in a better way..Its upto us how we understand and take it..sane people would take it in the right way and insane people?ofcourse, would interpret it according to their own whims and fancies and whatever befits their needs
DeleteTaran also means respect/love. So in that sense Tulsidas means to say that all these deserve respect and not discrimination. All BTW tulsidas was good for nothing till his wife inspired him and then only he wrote this ramayan. so he wud b the last person to show disrespect to women.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your input & understanding Rishi Dev.
DeleteTaran also means respect/love. So in that sense Tulsidas means to say that all these deserve respect and not discrimination. All BTW tulsidas was good for nothing till his wife inspired him and then only he wrote this ramayan. so he wud b the last person to show disrespect to women.
ReplyDeleteHi Deepti,
ReplyDeleteI guess you are stressing more on what was said than who said it. It is one of the less important (read negative charactered) people in the story of Rama who said the lines and was adjudged a fool by whole of Rama's team - in fact this is one of the rare part of story where Rama lost his cool.
If you people take a dumbster's quote so seriously probably you should take Prem chopra also seriously - "itni sundar cheez bhagwaan ke liye kaise chhod doon"
Ravi,
DeleteThe very fact that you are calling such an eminent persona "very less important or of negative shade"(referring to tulsidas) is not acceptable.
He is not "รค character of ramcharitmanas" he is the author of Ramcharitmanas. He is a very renowned poet and a great saint "Goswami Tulsidas" name ought to be taken with due respect and not referring to him as just a character. He was a great reformer and philosopher from Ramanandi Sampradaya renowned for his devotion to the god Rama.
Rama's team(as you refer) did not call him a fool as sant tulsidas was born in the 16th century. you stand corrected.
Secondly, What we(Myself and my hubby) refer to or not is not the context here and is nobody's say. It was just a reference to the topic. i mean as to why I was compelled to write about it, or may be the thought to write about i t sprung from our discussions.
A sane person would not judge or even talk about, what conversations take place between 2 people(specially hubby and wife) but the matter.
:-) Giving befitting responses is very easy. I could give many other from the scriptures (why refer movies) itself but all I wanted was, for him to see sense. Its never gaining brownies between such close relationships. We need to look at the big picture.
Every Individual have their own perceptions and way of seeing things. Doesn't mean they have half knowledge. :-)
Read on....
Hi Deepti,
ReplyDeleteI guess you are stressing more on what was said than who said it. It is one of the less important (read negative charactered) people in the story of Rama who said the lines and was adjudged a fool by whole of Rama's team - in fact this is one of the rare part of story where Rama lost his cool.
If you people take a dumbster's quote so seriously probably you should take Prem chopra also seriously - "itni sundar cheez bhagwaan ke liye kaise chhod doon"
HI Deepti,
ReplyDeleteI guess you people (you as well as your husband) are stressing more on what was said than the context in which it was said and the character of Ramacharit manas who said it.
It was said by a very less important (also read negative charactered) character of the story. And was adjudged a fool by whole of Rama's team.
If your husband quotes a fool's (going by Rama & Co.'s remark of Jada and shatha ) statement - without knowing the story behind it - to demean you, probably you should pick quote from some recent movie like jism, masti or so to justify other things that he thinks is wrong.
Kya zamana hai ... apne aap ko sahi dikhane ke liye log adha picture dikha dete hain aur aap bina pura jane usko alag nazariye se dekhne ke koshish me lag jaate hain ... see the bigger picture and you have the answer.
Deepti @ Either u hav got it from Wrong Source , Or lack knowledge about ancient way of living and teaching :-
ReplyDeleteDhol -, Gawar shudra ,pashu nari...........sab hai taran ke adhikari ...Dhol , Nymphomaniac, Illiterate worker are the actual meaning of the Phrase .. Becoz with this phrase with u posted here , it contradicts the Teaching of Vedas which was followed at those times. Hope u Compare and do a research from authentic site to know the truth :)
Dhol -Gawar shudra-, pashu nari...........sab hai taran ke adhikari //// This is the actual one .. Dhol, Illiterate Worker Gawar shudra, nymphomanic (pashu nari) ... This is the meaning & it seems u hav posted something that contradict he teaching of VEDAS which was widely practiced during Ram's regime.
ReplyDeleteDeepti do some research from Authentic source , ur knowledge is impartial about vedic era ... Don't be too conclusive reading some Anti Vedic Sources ... Hope u will realise the truth
I would like to know your source of knowledge. Also, I ask for more clarity on what you have typed. Its quite confusing.
Delete"Apprehensive" seems to be the right nick name for you.Well chosen. I must say you know yourself quite well. Kudos!
Another request, please follow certain mannerisms when you are on a public forum. There is a way to discuss and put forth your points.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThx for the explanation,
DeleteI suppose its more or less the same things that I explained but in different words. The context that you are giving is also right. Its how sant Tulsidas interprets it as compared to valmiki ramayana.
Coming to the females, when I spoke about females its the same thing but I also included unmarried women as opposed to just married women that you are talking about. I also believe its a social norm to be followed by women for a healthier society. That was exactly what I was trying to explain . its not about women who behave like a low animal but its women(the character)-nari, any pashu- untamed animal- that is the reference. shudra- the labour class or the worker class.
No animal is low or high we are all the creations of the same power.
Also, when you say authentic source could you please refer some? How sure are you about your resources?
My resources and thoughts come from my ancestors. Just so that you know, my great grand is also one of the greatest saints "Sri Asygyala Govinda Dasaru". You may google him. :-)